Why Should a Wife Fight for Her Marriage?

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Why Should a Wife Fight for Her Marriage?

Carol Bourque

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Listen to how God can work in a woman’s life after the discovery of her husband’s sin to heal her pain, make her more like Jesus and teach her to fight on her knees for God to save, not her marriage, but her husband’s soul.

Pure Life Ministries Director of Women’s Counseling Carol Bourque shares from her own testimony and experience in an interview with Nate Danser.

Carol Bourque is the director of women's counseling here at Pure Life, and she has been counseling women in our Wives Program since 2011. Carol, as you know, the church is in a horrible condition and the statistics are staggering. Men are addicted to pornography and sexual sin in unprecedented numbers, and very often there's a wife attached to that man, and she is suffering silently. Last night I went through Kathy Gallagher's book, "When His Secret Sin Breaks Your Heart", and she shared some brief quotes from women who found out that her husband was involved in sexual sin, and the agony is overwhelming. And that women really are in a fight for their own lives, and I can only imagine that the idea then of fighting for their marriage is something that they would find very difficult. You know, you've been counseling for the last 8 years or so with us, so you have you had a good amount of experience and also time to see how even the culture is changing, and I just wonder if now in 2019, are women more likely to be encouraged to throw in the towel on their marriage than they were even 10 years ago?

Well, interestingly enough, I think there is a mixture. And it actually surprises me because today, the culture would tell us, as women, that we don't have to put up with something like that. To just get out of that situation and move on and start over with somebody else. However, most of the women who come to Pure Life Ministries Wives Program for help, are Christian women. And so they really do want to stay in their marriage and help their husbands to fight in this battle that they're in.

Well, I'm definitely encouraged to hear that, because just like you said, the voice of culture is so strong these days, and you know, even if you want to do the right thing, it really doesn't do much to alleviate the agony that these women are in. And I want to read a quote from Kathy Gallagher's book about a wife who went through this. And she said, “Early one Saturday morning he finally confessed to me that he had had an affair with a married woman. I was outraged. I suddenly began to get up and punch him with all my might. The next month was like a nightmare that I could not awaken from. More confessions and horror stories: an affair with a 55-year-old woman; topless bars; table dances and so on. The blood would run cold through my veins with each story. The left side of my face would go numb. I went from 129 pounds to 113 pounds. My hair began to fall out. I had diarrhea daily, and at times I thought that I would surely die. I could not believe that he would be unfaithful to me again. I kept trying to convince myself it was untrue but there it was staring me in the face.”

This, you know this woman is describing pain of an unbelievable magnitude and it's hard for me to imagine a woman going through something like that, saying, “You know what? Yeah, I want to fight for this marriage!” But you have seen women who experience that kind of pain actually stand up and begin to fight?

Yes, actually. You know I think once they get past that devastation, and they're in a place where they can hear from the Lord, they are willing to do whatever it takes to fight and to be obedient to what they have heard God call them to. And the call is usually when you're down on the ground, in that pain and devastation crying out to God saying, “What should I do, or should I leave this guy?” Usually there's that still, small, quiet voice that you hear from the Lord, and most times he says, “I have not released you from this marriage.” And so that's what most of these women come into our programs sensing, that God has not released them from this marriage yet. They may not understand why, but they're willing to stay and fight.

You know, Carol, I've never been betrayed by someone at a level like that, but I have experienced some very extreme mental anguish, at times. I know how difficult it is to still yourself enough to begin to hear what you said, that still, small voice. How would you encourage a wife if she just can't hear yet because the roar of the pain is so strong; how does she move forward?

Well, that's a good question, and I know that it was more an emotional mind battle for me. Because I would constantly be replaying and rethinking all of the scenarios, the situations that my husband had confessed, so my mind was constantly bombarded with those thoughts and those images. And so, for me, in order for those images and those thoughts to stop, I had to force myself to get over the Word of God. I took Scripture, every time there was a thought that popped into my mind I would take scripture, and I would meditate on it. And anywhere, anytime during the day, so what I did for myself, and I encourage women to do this: I bought some 3 x 5 cards. Well, I was actually encouraged by my counselor when I went to the program to do this. She said buy some 3 x 5 cards and get into the Word of God, and write Scripture on these cards, and put them everywhere - in your house, in your car. I mean I've got them taped in my shower. And when, anywhere, and a thought would come into my mind, I would choose at that moment to either give over and be tormented with that thought or I would choose to dwell on God's word. And I love the Word of God, because it says in the Psalms that He sent His word and healed us. (Psalm 107) That's exactly what He did for me. His word healed my mind and, there's no other explanation for what happened for me, and for many women who go through our program.

So, you've been describing how you fought your own personal battle. Now, let's say a wife says … She's kind of getting herself back up on her feet … just personally and she says, “You know what? I do want to begin to fight for my marriage.” First, can we talk about some wrong ways to fight? Because there's a lot of ways to fight, but we don't always help situations sometimes. Can you get some wrong ways to fight for a marriage?

Yeah, I think the wrong way to fight is obviously in our flesh, and that would be our wanting to take control of the situation, and then to control our husbands as well. So, some women either will become more like a mother to them than a wife, or some will become more like a detective or a policewoman. There are women, and I've counseled many of these, who again, trying to take matters into their own hands, by shaming their husbands or nagging them or belittling them; thinking that these things will force him to change; And men began to get resentful of their wives. They see them as that, being a nag. They do not respond well to trying to be controlled. And it's not going to change them, and that's the thing that we don't understand. Our trying to take matters into our own hands is not going to change our husbands.

So how should she fight?

On her face. Before the Lord. That is the only thing I know to say to a woman when she's asking, you know, what do I do? What do I do? And my counsel to her is you get your eyes off of your husband and off of yourself and you get them on the Lord. Ephesians 6 talks about where our struggle, our battle really is. And it says it’s not against flesh and blood but it's against rulers and powers, against the world forces of darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places. And we so often feel like this is a flesh, you know, physical battle. But it's more of a spiritual battle. And I think once a wife can understand that this is not about her, and her husband but it's more about her husband and his relationship with the Lord, then she can begin to fight for him, in the proper way again, in prayer.

You know, I was talking with Kathy Gallagher about this the same topic a couple of days ago, and she said that one of the difficulty she's experienced when counseling women, and telling them, “begin to pray for your husband,” is that, they say, “I have been! I mean, I've been praying my heart out that this jerk would change” and all that. So, how do you pray rightly for your husband, because you mentioned that.

I know in my own experience, with myself, my prayers were very self-focused, especially in the beginning. They really did center around me. You know, “God, change this guy…” you know, I wasn't actually saying this in my prayer, but this is what my thought was, right? You know, change this guy so I don't have to struggle, I don't have to deal with this stuff; I don't have to go through this pain, so I don't have to suffer. His soul was very small on my radar. What it was doing to him spiritually was really, especially, in the beginning, I didn't think about him or his soul, to be quite honest with you. So, I know that a lot of our prayers are really very self-focused, and so I think that once our prayer begins to be a prayer of faith, that God is able to do what we could never do and we're not trusting in man, we are trusting in our Creator, we're trusting in God to do the impossible, because if this man doesn't receive a revelation about his spiritual condition, he will most likely perish. And so, we become desperate and we intercede on behalf of our husbands so we're putting ourselves in his place, so to speak, instead of focusing on the prayer being about ourselves.

Yeah, I mean it sounds like if you were really in the spirit of intercession, the results of the marriage take a back seat.

Yeah, absolutely, and again, I think of it as you becoming desperate, almost putting yourself in that position that your husband's in and crying out to God like you're crying out for yourself on behalf of this man who you are one with. Because God says that when a man and woman are joined together, and they become one flesh. So you're crying out for him almost like it's you.

Yeah, if I was in that position, what would I need; what would I want?

Right, right! How would I want to be prayed for? Because sometimes it's like the sin and the deception that these men are in, it's almost like they can't even pray; so who better than his wife to bear him to the Lord?

That really changes things. It gives a wife a completely new direction, a completely different purpose than from “how do I fix this problem,” to “how do I have an eternal perspective about this?” And it just amazing, because in a in a real way, she's becoming like Jesus, because that's what Jesus did. That's who He is, that's His heart and His desire for us.

I was just going to say that. I was just going to say but that's the heart of Jesus. It really is the heart of Jesus. Now I don't think it happens overnight. I don't think it happens as soon as you find out that your husband's in sexual sin. I do know that there is a time where a woman definitely is grieving over what’s happened and the focus is on herself for a time. But, again, as she as she looks to God, she's looking to the Lord instead of looking at what her husband's done or done to her and that's how most women see it. “This is what he's done to me!” Once she can see that this is what he's doing to the Lord, first and foremost, and it does take time, it is a process, and some women go through that process faster than others. For me, it took a long time to get to that point.

I really appreciate those thoughts because I think it gives a really balanced viewpoint about this; that the pain is tremendous and no one is discounting that, but there really is a path forward through this and you can follow God's will in this and not just not just quit. Thank you so much, Carol, for joining us and God bless you, and may God bless all the women who are listening to this.

May God bless you too.

This excerpt is from our podcast episode, “Why should a Wife Fight for Her Marriage” Episode #351.

To access our full podcast library, visit purelifeministries.org/purity-for-life, or check us out in the iTunes store or Google Play store.

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Timeless Truths: We All Need Genuine Repentance

November 7, 2024

Jesus warned that on Judgment Day, He would tell many that He "never knew them” because, although they performed religious actions in His name, they were harboring iniquity in their hearts. In today’s Timeless Truths, we’ll discuss why repentance and intimacy with Christ will prepare us to stand before God. Host: Counselor Bill Lucas has joined Kathy Gallagher and I in the studio today. Bill, it's good to see you. Thanks for coming in. Bill: Thank you for having me. Host: We want to talk today about the lifestyle and attitude of repentance. We're going to begin by taking a look at three types of individuals described in Scripture that do not reflect an attitude of repentance. Those types are false teachers, those who have never repented, and the self-righteous. Let's start with false teachers. How do we recognize them and how do we recognize that they in fact are not walking in a life of repentance? Bill: Well, Jesus talks about this in Matthew. “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matthew 7:15-21, NASB 1995) Just looking at this Scripture, it wakes me up to see that it's not about what you're doing so much on the outward, but it is an inward call. The inside is very important, and that's what I believe Jesus is trying to wake us up to. Kathy: Yea, they are teachers, and they are in front of a crowd of people. They're leading people. But the thing that Jesus sees is what's going on in the inside. The motivation of the heart. That's what He's looking at. Host: So, these false teachers are in the Church and they look like other believers in a lot of ways? Bill: Correct. The false prophet is one who is mainly being governed by their own evil lust. The Bible talks a little bit about this in Romans. It says that they are like slaves of their own appetites and they deceive unsuspecting people. Host: What does Scripture indicate motivates false teachers? Bill: Well, anyone that you would think of that's promoting their own agenda. They're doing it for a profit or it's a trade of theirs to a degree. They're trying to promote their own kingdom. They're building a kingdom of their own rather than building up the Kingdom of God. Host: Sounds like a politician giving the people what their itching ears want to hear. They’ll say whatever will make the people happy to get elected. Bill: Interestingly yes, there are those similarities. Host: Well, now let's talk about those who have never truly repented. I know that there are a lot of individuals in the church who surround themselves with a cloak of Christianity. They may go to church. They may listen to Christian radio programs. They may read Christian books. But the Bible does speak very clearly about who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and it's not describing those who are just doing these outward things. Bill: That's right. Of course, the Bible is very clear about who does get to come into Heaven, and that is repeatedly said to be the one that does the will of the Father. And Romans 12:1-2 is very clear to me. It says, “Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:1-2, NASB 1995) And I just look at the idea of repentance. When you are convicted by the Holy Spirit, there is a change that occurs in you. It must happen and it's not something that is adaptable with the world system. You have to begin to go in a completely different direction from where the world system is leading you. Host: But on the other hand, Jesus talks about those that do not appear to have adapted to the world system, but in fact seem on the outside to have adapted to the religious system. And He talks about those in that camp that surely will end up in hell. Talk to us a little bit about Jesus's admonition about that. Bill: Yes, outwardly there is an element of Christianity in those people Jesus is talking about, but He is looking at their heart. And for those that have never truly repented, there's an element of wickedness remaining in their heart. 2 Timothy, 2:19 says, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19, NKJV) Again, in Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.” (Psalm 5:5, NKJV) And I believe that the people that don't truly repent have iniquity in their heart. Jesus said that he will tell those that prophesied in His name, cast out demons and performed miracles, “I never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity.” So, iniquity is still dwelling in their heart that they've never truly repented of. Kathy: These people that Jesus was speaking of, they were in the Church. They were casting out demons. They were doing many mighty works. And yet Jesus said, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you.” That's a scary thing, because I think that there are a lot of people doing a lot of churchy stuff who do not know Jesus Christ and have never been born from above. They've joined the church, they've acclimated to the system, but there's a difference between joining the Church and being born into the Church. And I think we see now in our day, a lot of people that are doing a lot of outward things, but there is no real union with Christ. Host: And there's no real fruit of repentance in their life. Kathy: Yes. There's no fruit. And outward works don’t equal fruit. That's not what fruit is. Fruit is what is coming out of your life. It's born of the Holy Spirit. It's your life spilling over into the lives of other people and people are coming into the Kingdom as a result of that fruit in your life. Host: Okay, well we've talked about the false teacher. We've talked about those who have never truly repented. What about the self-righteous? Jesus talked to the Pharisees about self-righteousness. Bill: Jesus said that your righteousness must surpass that of the Scribes and Pharisees, or you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Righteousness is the lack of iniquity. And a repentant heart is one that has departed from iniquity. The truly repentant person, and the one that is not a self-righteous person, is low in heart and humble and willing to acknowledge their lack. They're willing to see their need for God. Kathy: It’s spiritual poverty, which is what the Pharisees didn't have. Their righteousness was outward, and that's what the self-righteous do. They prop themselves up on the things that they do, their outward works and the way they even look. If they can appear righteous to people, then they consider that Christianity. But Jesus said it goes way beyond that. It's the heart that God is looking at. And when He said that your righteousness must surpass that outward ability to look like a Christian, He was highlighting that it's a heart issue. Bill: Right. The Pharisees were law-keepers. But Jesus came into the world and started representing the idea of an inward life. It's an element of faith that is being missed in our churches today that people need to just acknowledge their need for God in faith and start looking not so much at the outward but start looking at the true motives of their own heart. It’s very real to me that my character is established when I'm all alone, or when no one else is around and that tells me something. Host: Amen. Let's end this discussion by talking about what the outcome of a lifestyle of repentance is and kind of break it into the negative and the positive. What are some of the negative things from a human perspective that we might experience if we're walking out this kind of life? Bill: The word that comes to mind is persecuted. You'll be persecuted for being extreme or overzealous. When it comes to following hard after Jesus, one thing I've learned is that it's hard. Jesus throughout the New Testament seemed to make it very clear that there is going to be affliction, there is going to be persecution and there are going to be tough times for those who choose to live out a righteous life. But Jesus says to endure to the end. I've got to keep looking at the fact that Jesus, when He talks about true Christianity and denial of self, says that He's going to give us what we need as long as we endure to the end. It doesn't always feel good. It doesn't always seem to be the most popular thing to be doing. But I know one thing, I'm not going to quit. And God is getting the glory from my life as long as I don't quit this walk of righteousness. Host: Well, and that of course is part of what we want to end up on here and that is that there is a tremendous reward. There is a positive side to living this kind of lifestyle. Bill: Jesus says in Matthew 5:12, “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in Heaven is great.” (Matthew 5:12a, NASB 1995) And I know that there is a peace and joy that reaches beyond the tentacles of this present world. Host: Yes, and there is great joy in that.

Timeless Truths: We Need the Mind of Christ

October 24, 2024

If we approach Scripture or life's challenges through human logic, our perspective will be devoid of spiritual wisdom. In this "Timeless Truths" segment, Steve Gallagher urges us to stop relying on our own understanding and instead turn to the Lord, so that He can impart the mind of Christ to us. Host: Steve Gallagher has joined me in the studio today. Steve, we want to talk today about the wisdom of “kosmos.” You discussed this at some length in your book, “Intoxicated with Babylon.” And in that chapter where you discussed the subject, you talked about the Western mind and how it has permeated so much of Christianity in America today. What did you mean by the Western mind? Steve: Well, Paul differentiates in the book of 1 Corinthians between the Jewish mindset and the Greek mindset. The Jewish mindset tied up in a nationalistic fervor regarding the Messiah and the temple and other elements of their cultural heritage. But the Greeks had a different way of approaching life, and it was through what they would call wisdom which was their Greek term “sofía.” Athens was the cultural center of Greek philosophy and their approach to looking at spirituality came through the processes of different theories that they would spin as they sat around and discussed things. So, to put it in a nutshell, the Western mind is simply a way to describe people who approach the Word of God and life’s problems through human logic rather than through what God has accomplished in their heart. Host: Well, God did give us a mind, so what's wrong with approaching life’s issues using the natural reasoning mind? Steve: We have to remember that Paul said, “The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.” (Romans 8:7, NASB) There is a very profound truth in that statement. We have a nature that is fallen because of our sin disposition. Left to ourselves our minds are going to revolve around self and selfishness. It will revolve around the way we want things to be and it will revolve around pride. So, when we're approaching spiritual matters, for us to just depend upon the logic of the human mind is dangerous because it's founded upon a faulty foundation. The only difference between a discerning spirit and a critical spirit is brokenness. Both use the human mind to look at a person’s faults and weaknesses and struggles, but an unbroken person looks at those faults through a self-righteous perspective. A person who has undergone the processes of God's discipline and knows what it means to be broken, who has gone through Calvary and has had his own sin issues dealt with, that person is going to look at another person's faults and struggles with a completely different mindset. It's going to be the mind of Christ that he is going to look at those problems through. And therein lies the difference between godly discipleship and most of the therapy that is being utilized under the guise of Christian Psychology in the United States today. Host: Well, you jumped right to the next subject. We do also want to talk about psychology, especially psychotherapy in the church today. Many people think about psychology with some form of the following logical trail of thought: if I break my finger, I go to the doctor. If my car is not working, I take it to the mechanic. So, if my mind is broken, why not go to the psychologist who is supposed to be the expert in the mind? What are your thoughts on that? Steve: Well, the mind isn't the problem, the heart is the problem. And until you get the heart straightened out, you can't straighten out the mind. The problem is that we all have faulty minds. The psychologist has a faulty mind. And if that psychologist hasn't truly been to the cross and gone through a repentance process himself, then he's in no condition spiritually to lead someone else to that place. You cannot lead another person spiritually any further than you've gone yourself. You can spend 20 years studying all the different nuances of psychology and the different theories and therapies. You can become the world's leading expert on all those things, but if you haven't surrendered at the cross and you don't know what it's like to have the mind of Christ, you're not going to have the ability to help Christians live a victorious Christian life. Host: And that really is the goal. The goal isn't for a person to feel better; the goal is to be victorious in their walk with Christ. Steve: The only way a person's really going to have fulfillment in life is to find it in Christ. The problem is that a lot of people don't want to go to the cross and surrender to the Lord, because they want to stay in control of their lives. They don't want to give up anything. They want to fit their lives around their worldly pursuits. And the truth is that for the most part, psychology teaches a form of life that says you don't have to go to the cross and surrender anything. It's an alternative to going to the cross, really. Host: In fact, you've said it is a false substitute for going to the cross or it is a line of thought that loves self as opposed to denying self. Steve: Yeah. And so, if you don't want to deny self and you don't even want to go in that direction, psychology is a great option for you. Host: And there is such a tremendous movement to accept that psychologized view in the church and very often we see this in the form of what we call “integrationism.” This is the perspective that we ought to integrate this worldly philosophy with the Word of God. What is the problem with that? Steve: Well, the problem is that the two are completely conflicting in what they're teaching. You're either going to the cross with your life, with your teachings, with what you are sharing with others, or you're going away from the cross and finding some way to comfort people in their sin. That's really the difference. You can't combine those two opposing philosophies. It's impossible. Host: They really are oil and water. I know that you go into this at great length in the rest of your book, “Intoxicated with Babylon,” but what is it about God's people today that opens us up to the acceptance of these kinds of ideas? Steve: Well, when you are in large part lending your mind to the voice of the world through television, through the internet, through school and worldly friends or coworkers, when your life is being much more influenced by the spirit of the world than it is by the spirit of Jesus Christ, you are just simply going to be much more vulnerable to their solutions, their ideas and their answers. You are just going to be very open to those kinds of teachings. Host: You've been helping men and women in sexual sin for over 20 years now. And despite the fact that some look at Christianity and look at the Word of God as being too simple to handle what they call the deep emotional problems of man, it's your experience that there is a true power in Christ to overcome those problems. Steve: Yes. And I had enormous emotional problems myself. But I have found this to be true not only in my own life, but in the lives of many that I've dealt with over the years, that when Jesus Christ has his rightful place in a person's life; when a person has really gotten a good sight of the Lord; when a person is really connected with the Lord through a strong devotional life; when a person has gone to the cross, and so on, those problems that may have seemed like a mountain before quickly become nothing more than a mole hill. It's just true that when God is big, our problems become small. But one of the greatest challenges that we have dealing with people who are struggling is that all the attractions and pleasures of the world have been huge and God has been tiny in their perspective. So, of course their problems are going to be huge as well. And our job at Pure Life Ministries is to turn that equation around and make God very big in their minds and hearts. And when we are able to help a person accomplish gain that perspective, then their problems are going to be very manageable. Host: Amen. Well, Steve, I hope that will be an encouragement to those who may be listening. To those who may have bounced back and forth from all kinds of worldly wisdom looking for an answer to know that there is an answer for them. There is hope for them and it is found at the cross in Christ. Steve: Absolutely. Host: Amen.

Timeless Truths: We Are Called to Forgive Without Conditions

October 3, 2024

When Jesus was on the cross being scorned and mocked by those who were crucifying Him, He said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." In this "Timeless Truths" segment, Judy Lucas talks about how, as followers of Christ, we also are called to unconditional forgiveness. Host: Judy, we want to look at an issue that is pretty common with some of the women we deal with whose husbands have been in sexual sin. It deals with the issue of forgiveness without repentance. And here's really what we want to talk about. For the person who's been sinned against, how is God calling them to deal with that issue, particularly when the person who sinned against them is not completely repentant? Judy: There really isn't a very straightforward, simple answer to that, because as you read the Bible, you do read examples where someone repents and then you forgive them. The classic verse on that is Luke 17:3, “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” (Luke 17:3, NASB) Host: Now, I can read that as saying that if you sin against me, but you don't ask me to forgive you, then I don't have to forgive you. And how often could we want to grab hold of that interpretation? Judy: Well, there are a lot of times that we want to grab hold of that interpretation. I can remember feeling that way, but this is a core issue. We can’t go off our feelings about this. We have examples in the Bible where Jesus Himself was hanging from across, looking down at those who nailed Him there and were mocking Him and He said, “Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.” Another example is Hebrews 12:15, which talks about how we should not let a root of bitterness grow up that can cause us trouble. Matthew 5:44 says, “I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.” (Matthew 5:44, KJV) So, the Bible is clearly calling us to forgive even if the other person isn't truly repentant or broken yet, because when we're choosing to walk in unforgiveness, we're choosing to walk in sin ourselves. And so, what we're doing is cutting off our relationship and our communion with God. Host: It seems to me that the person who wants to read that passage in Luke 17 and say, “Well, they haven't come to me. They haven't asked me for forgiveness, so I'm not going to forgive them. I'm going to stay mad at them.” Really the difference between that person and the person who's willing to go to their brother or sister and try to help them to understand that they've been offended by them is that one person is focused on themselves while the other is more interested in helping the other person out. Judy: Very true, because the first person you mentioned is reacting to their feelings while the other is more concerned about the other person’s heart. They are asking themselves things like, “What is this person’s relationship with God really like?” And the concern should be that if the sin continues, where is that going to lead this person? There's a passage in Matthew 18:15-16 that gives directives for us to go in love with the attitude of Christ and talk to our brother about why we are hurting or why we were offended. So, there's room for that. But it needs to be restorative. If he doesn't repent, which is often the case, then you have a choice to take that next step and go to a pastor or another godly man and bring him into the situation. But that's you praying through and using wisdom on what to do next. Host: Yeah, but you must not hold bitterness or a grudge or stop showing that person love. As much as it depends on you, you should have peace with your brother or sister — even if they’ve offended you. Judy: Absolutely. And that really is the crucified life, where you are willing to deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow after Him. Host: Now we understand from a human perspective that some of the sin from one spouse toward another can be horrendous and we understand the natural response to that. So I guess to the person out there who's struggling with this, they should know we're called to a divine response, not a natural response. And I guess the best suggestion for a person struggling to forgive is to look to the Lord, put your eyes on Jesus and remember what He did for you as you alluded to earlier in our discussion. We need to remember that while we were yet in sin, He died for us. He forgave us. That's our example. That can go a long way in helping us get through those tough times when we really have been offended. To sum it up, our response needs to go beyond what comes naturally to us.